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A Message From The Past

Allison and I are in beautiful New Orleans enjoying a business/personal vacation that is well needed for us. It’s a good time of quiet and rest. It’s given me time to reflect on my book and the process of writing and my attitude over the past couple of years and hopefully how I’ve changed....

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Dr. Heath Lambert on Preventing Moral Failure

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in counseling, fallenness, heath lambert, interview, pastors, prevention | Posted on 14-07-2014

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lambertI had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Heath Lambert recently and discussing several topics including temptation, biblical counseling, preventing ministry failure, and lust. Dr. Lambert is the assistant professor of Biblical Counseling at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He’s also the Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He’s also author/co-author of several books, including “Finally Free: Fighting for Purity with the Power of Grace.

Introduction

Dr. Lambert and I began by talking about statistics of fallen ministers and his impression of them:

The statistic I have heard for a long time is that one-fifth or 20% of ministers will leave the ministry due to some form of moral failure. Those empirical numbers are not what matter to me the most. What matters to me the most is when you’re sitting there talking to a man and his wife who have just been devastated from leaving the ministry or talking to a woman who has been involved with a pastor.

So the 20% is a big number but when I have people talking to me, that’s when I feel the real weight of it.

Preventing Ministry Failure

One of the most important topics that we discussed was how to help pastors prevent ministry failure. We discussed this idea for biblical counselors and it is also relevant for anyone in ministry. For that matter, all Christians should be aware of the situations and temptations that we face.

Dr. Lambert discussed two types of prevention. First, he discussed external prevention. Safeguards we can place on our lives to prevent failure. These include having accountability, having an open door policy, and having a right relationship with your wife.

Prevention for ministers and biblical counselors:

External Prevention

Have an office with windows so others can look in

Avoid long-term counseling with the opposite sex

1 Timothy 5 tells us to engage with women in ministry so I do meet and counsel women. I’m a woman’s pastor just as I am a man’s pastor. But it’s important to avoid ongoing counseling with the opposite sex. There’s a difference between ‘I’m going to meet with you a couple of times so I can find out what’s going on’ vs. meeting with a member of the opposite sex in an ongoing counseling relationship.

Don’t meet with just one spouse for marriage counseling

One thing I say to people is, if you’re only meeting with the husband or wife by themselves, it’s not marriage counseling.

Don’t meet with a woman without having another woman nearby

Dr. Lambert has an open door policy. He has a female staff member near the door who is aware of the counseling going opendooron. He recommends in a church setting having a staff member outside the door or having a woman sit in the counseling session with you.

Keep your wife informed

As soon as you start being aware that you’re meeting with a woman and that you’re not telling your wife about it or you’re not telling her about things happening in the meeting, you need to know there’s a problem. I’m not talking about things that are privileged information either. Some things that happen in counseling situations that need to stay confidential. But there may be times when a person you’re counseling texts you or says something that you want to keep from your wife. If that’s happening, there is a problem.

- Listen to your wife

There have been four or five times when my wife has been more aware of situations of trouble that I might have been getting into than I was.” (Dr. Lambert and I agreed to call it women’s intuition). “She has seen things coming before I have. I have learned to listen to her and her wisdom. She is just a better judge of character than I am. She’s been right every time.

Be an open book with your wife

My wife isn’t nosy. My email is just right there. She uses my phone. I’m not doing anything to hide from her. We live life openly and don’t have any secrets. There is one woman I have to make happy in the world and that’s my wife.

Have others you are accountable to

There are four guys I am accountable to. They know everything about me. If they wanted to write a tell-all book about me, they could do it. These are guys I tell every struggle and thought to. Things I don’t even necessarily share with my wife first. I might share with them that I am struggling with lust or dishonesty. They help me to see weak spots and share things with me in the most honest and candid manner.

Make your wife a point of conversation

“I’m not going out of my way to talk about her. I’m leading with my wife in conversation. She’s on my mind. The women that know me and work with me know that there’s no room in my life for them. Which is what they should think.”

Internal Prevention

External prevention is helpful, but for a Christian to avoid temptation and moral failure, it cannot end there. The soul must be on guard and a person’s relationship with Christ must be pursued along with personal holiness.

Dr. Lambert: “The reality is that you can do all those things and still commit adultery. You can put a window in your office door and still commit adultery. You can give up on your commitment to value your wife as soon as you meet a pretty girl in a restaurant out of town. You can create a private email or buy a second cell phone. You can give the appearance of having accountability if you want.

God is honest about the temptation, he’s honest about the fallout, but He doesn’t just talk about the forbidden woman . . . but He also talks about this perfect picture of your wife. That’s an invitation for us to fight, to treasure our wives.

The battle is won or lost at the level of our intentions. What do I intend to do with women? I think about that in a couple of ways. One thing I try to do is urge men to get close to Jesus. Nobody ever committed adultery or got found in some persistent problem with adultery when they were nurturing intimacy and closeness in their walk with Jesus Christ.

One of the things I am praying every single morning is ‘Jesus will you give me you? Will you make me like you? Will you give me passion for you?’ Because when Jesus is filling up your heart, he’s defining the categories of your heart. And he’s defining what there is and is not room for in your heart.

The Allure of Temptation

Dr. Lambert said he prayed for several things every day in his pursuit for Christ including purity and a better relationship with his wife. In doing so, a Christian is insulating themselves from lust but also turning their hearts toward their wives.

In Proverbs 5 and 7, there’s a sense in which the author is very honest about the forbidden woman. She’s very tempting. She’s got an attractive offer for you. Her husband is out of town, he’s not coming back for a month, she’s decorated her house, she’s put some perfume on, and come, let’s take our fill of love. She’s not telling you this is going to be the least thrilling thing you’ve ever done. She’s not saying, “everyone you know is going to find out, your ministry is going to be over.” She’s saying, “you’re going to have the time of your life.”

temptationIn Proverbs 5 and 7, God is very honest about seduction. But God is very honest that if you follow her, you’ll be like an ox led to the slaughter.

God is honest about the temptation, he’s honest about the fallout, but He doesn’t just talk about the forbidden woman, but back in the 20’s of Proverbs 5, He says ‘start thinking about your wife.’ He says, ‘let her breasts satisfy you. Rejoice in her love.’ So He gives you this true picture of this thing to fight against but He also talks about this perfect picture of your wife. That’s an invitation for us to fight, to treasure our wives.

Fighting Temptation By Focusing on Your Wife

You’ll hear some guys say when you’re looking at a woman with lust, ‘bounce your eyes.’ I want to do that, I want to look away, but I also want to bounce my heart. So, I’m trying to cultivate with discipline of bouncing my eyes, ‘no, not that,’ but to do more. And to think about what my wife does that makes me happy. Think about what she does that encourages me. Think about what I would like our life to be like in 30 years.

Another thing I’m doing is looking for opportunities to nurture the affections in my heart for her. So I have on my iPhone a set of songs that I will only listen to if I promise to only think about her. If I am feeling really frustrated with her, rather than just feel frustrated with her, I’ll plug my iPhone into the car and start thinking about my wife. We’re structured so music strikes a chord with our affections. So I’ll just listen to George Strait, “Carried Away,” and start thinking about my wife.

I also have five things about my wife that are awesome that I think about when I’m frustrated with her or if I’m tempted. These are things that are true of her that are true of no one else and they stir my heart.”

A Right Relationship With Other Women

The next thing is that in the 1 Timothy 5 sense it says we are to treat women with all purity. There are two relationships described in Scripture we are to have with women. The first is with our wives as described in Song of Solomon.

The other one is the sisterly relationship. I find that every time you look at a woman, every time you engage with a woman, you are making a choice about what’s going to motivate your looking at her. About what is going to motivate your interacting with her. Is my interaction with you, my conversation with you, my looking at you motivated by lust or some kind of desire to impress you to have this be something other than it is? Or is it motivated by loving you as a talkingsister with all purity?

I don’t have a sister, but I have a daughter. And I have affection for both. But the difference is daylight and dark between the types of affection. So I have a gut check when I have a conversation with another woman, I ask, ‘What’s motivating my looking at you?’ And if I’m aware that I’m motivated by something other than sisterly purity, then I know in that moment to say, ‘Lord, forgive me, give me grace to be motivated by sisterly purity as I engage with this woman.’

Having the Right Intentions

Those motivations are where the battle is won or lost. I’m for windows in the door and all that, they’re all important, but ultimately, if you’re not motivated by sisterly purity but by the lust of the eyes, then all of the windows, and accountability won’t matter.

But if you are motivated by sisterly purity and a woman is in a mind to commit adultery and there is no window in the door, you’re not going to fall in that moment. Why? Because you’ve spent time cultivating the idea, ‘you’re not for me, my wife is, and this wouldn’t honor Jesus.’

For pastors seeking to be educated and stronger in biblical counseling, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has distance and on-site learning classes available. For any church member looking to strengthen their counseling base, The Association of Biblical Counselors has weekend and other programs to train you to be effective in your congregation.

Other helpful links:

Interview with Heath Lambert on ‘Finally Free” by Grant Castleberry

Dr. Heath Lambert’s Testimony

Porn, Pride, and Praise: An Interview with Heath Lambert” by Desiring God

If you have been moved by Dr. Lambert’s words and need help, please take time to purchase his book, “Finally Free: Fighting for Purity With the Power of Grace.”

Special thanks to my friend and mentor, Dr. Hershael York, for making this interview possible.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Coming Monday: Heath Lambert Interview

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in blog, interview | Posted on 10-07-2014

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lambertI’m excited to tell you about an upcoming post on Monday. I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Heath Lambert recently. Dr. Lambert is the assistant professor of Biblical Counseling at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He’s also the Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He’s also author/co-author of several books, including “Finally Free: Fighting for Purity with the Power of Grace.

He’s also a really great guy.

What all that means is that I got a chance to sit down with another expert to give insight on the problems that face pastors and some of the issues that lead to moral failure.

We covered a lot of topics including preventing moral failure, the issue of pornography, continually loving your spouse, and fighting temptation. You’re not going to want to miss it.

Also, don’t miss tomorrow’s guest blog by Bobby Sutton, author of, “I Slept With Potiphar’s Wife.” He has a heart for pastoral restoration.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

SBC President Fred Luter: Help for Fallen Pastors

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in adultery, fallenness, Fred Luter, interview, pastors, southern baptist | Posted on 11-06-2014

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fluter6The Southern Baptist Convention is taking place this week in Baltimore and with it, the final week of Pastor Fred Luter as President. So, I’m reposting the interview I had with him a couple of months ago concerning fallen pastors and ministry failure. I had a great meeting with him and he showed his concern about fallen pastors. This is part two and I encourage you to read both parts. I pray for Pastor Luter as he continues his ministry.

Here’s part two of my interview with Pastor Fred Luter, current president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Make sure you check out part one before you pick up here. We covered all kinds of topics.

In the second half, we talk about what should happen to pastors who commit adultery, whether churches are properly equipped to handle the fall of a pastor, how pastors can be restored, and part of Pastor Luter’s own personal journey.

Fallen Pastors, Restoration, and How the Church Can Manage It

Ray Carroll: I believe there’s a moment when a pastor has forfeit his right to be the shepherd of his congregation.

Fred Luter: I believe that too. I’m not saying he can’t do anything. But he’s not fit to shepherd the people.

RC: Whether it’s an African-American church, or a Caucasian church that kicks a guy to the curb or gets a guy six months of counseling, everyone seems to be handling it differently. Six months of counseling isn’t going to fix what’s wrong with your heart, you know?

FL: That’s right.

RC: I believe when a man falls, it’s because there’s something wrong with your relationship with God and there’s something wrong with your relationship with your wife. And it’s going to take a whole lot longer than six months to fix both of those things.

FL: I agree with that. I’m on the same page as you.

RC: Churches are ill-equipped, rather, they don’t even know where to go where to look when their pastor falls. Whether it’s a Caucasian church or an African-American church, they most often don’t know where to go for help.

FL: I like the statement you made that when a brother falls, he’s not ready to be a senior pastor. See, that’s the problem in many of our African-American churches. Many of our churches, we didn’t have staff members. The pastor was the head honcho. We had associate ministers who were volunteers or bi-vocational. An African-American church, if the pastor isn’t there, it’s going to crumble. It’s going to fall because we depend so much on that person.

I think if there were more opportunities in the African-American church for preachers who fall and they can still be used in other positions other than senior pastor, I don’t think the damage would be as bad.

RC: I agree. I’ve seen guys who say, “I shouldn’t be pastoring right now. I need to be restored.” And when I say restored, I don’t mean to ministry, I mean to Christ. They need to get their life right with Christ before they start thinking about a return to ministry. I think if they do that, there’s a chance for them for a return to some sort of ministry. And whatever form of ministry they return to, that’s not up to me, that’s up to God.

“I’ll never forget when I started running for the position of Southern Baptist president, I started getting calls from all over the country from white media asking, ‘Why in the world does a black man want to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention?‘”

I believe what you’re saying is absolutely right. Galatians 6:1 says to “restore such a one.”

FL: Exactly. And that’s the problem with a lot of our brothers in the body of Christ. They don’t look at that Scripture. It says, “restore,” it doesn’t say “kick them to the curb.” I know you’ve heard the saying that the church are the only ones who shoot our own wounded. I know you’ve seen it personally and seen it other places. Where is the restoration? And it’s a problem.

And your ministry and I appreciate what you’re doing and the ministry Johnny Hunt has for fallen ministers. Johnny has helped a lot of pastors. We can’t just kick these guys to the curb. What if Moses had been kicked to the curb? Or David?

So somewhere, somehow, we’ve got to look at how we deal with a fallen brother or a fallen sister and the ultimate goal is that there needs to be restoration.

RC: We have a battle of extremes in many of our churches when it comes to fallen pastors. We either let him stay where he is without seriously dealing with his sin or we kick him out, which is saying, “If you sin, we’re done with you.” Instead, we should be saying, “When you sin, there is grace and restoration back to Christ for the repentant sinner.” What a model of restoration that is for the body of Christ to witness.

High Expectations for Church Leaders

FL: I think the problem lies in that we tend to feel that because of a pastor’s position that they should know better. But we’re human just like fluter8anyone else. I tell that to people at my church all the time, “I have marital issues just like you do, we have financial issues just like you do, and many nights I’ve slept on the sofa.” I’m very transparent with my congregation.

Yes, I’m in a position of leadership, but I’m a human just like you are. I have the same struggles and issues that you do. That’s why you need to keep me in your prayers. But when I do mess up, don’t say, “Well you should know better, you’re the pastor.” That’s the problem we have in a lot of our churches. We’ve put this guy on some kind of pedestal. And when they do fall how we deal with them is very inappropriate.

RC: That’s one of the factors I found when I interviewed pastors for my book that can weaken men to a dangerous point was overly high expectations. I also found that pastors have more unrealistic expectations for themselves than anyone else places on them.  Many have become consumed with doing ministry and have forgotten about pursuing Christ and letting Him do His work.

FL: And in the beginning we spend so much time in the Word and in prayer because we need help. There’s really only depending on God. But now we’ve got a few sermons under our belt and we look back and do some good things here or there and we don’t depend on God as much.

Recommendations for Fallen African-American Pastors & Churches

RC: So what would you tell me when an African-American brother or sister contacts me and says, “I’ve fallen or my husband has fallen and the church leaders are telling me I’ve got to stay or my husband has to stay and to keep quiet about it.” Generally, what’s your advice?

FL: What I would say is in spite of what the leadership says, you request some time off. Call it a sabbatical, call it a vacation, and just say you need some time. You don’t have to make it a public announcement, but the key leaders will know why. Tell them you need to work on yourself and you need to work on your marriage.

Franklin Avenue is the only church I’ve ever pastored. We started with 50 members. I was a street preacher after I got saved. I was preaching at Greater Liberty Baptist Church and came to Franklin Avenue. Technically, that’s how I became a Southern Baptist. Franklin Avenue was at one time an all-white Baptist Church.

luter5I’ll never forget when I started running for the position of Southern Baptist president, I started getting calls from all over the country from white media asking, “Why in the world does a black man want to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention?” I told them when I became a pastor, this was an all-white church and that’s how I became part of the Southern Baptists.

I never will forget there were times I was burning the candle at both ends, I felt I was the poster child for the Southern Baptists and I was on every news program. And it just got to the point when I used to go continually and I would come home and my kids would say, “Hey Dad, it’s good to see you!” But it got to a point where they would just say, “Hey Dad.”

And I said to myself, “Wow, I’m losing my family.” I’m going all over the country, preaching at all these places to all these people who are having me sign their Bibles, but I’m losing my family. And one Sunday I got before my church and said to them, “Folks, I need to take some time off. I’m going so much that I’m losing my family. And shame on me if I’m going all across the country and trying to save the world and I lose my own family.” I told them it wasn’t scheduled but I need a week off.

And guess what? They stood up and applauded and were very supportive. I will never forget that day as long as I live. My wife and kids had no idea I was going to do that.

People need to be honest with themselves. Like I always say – a drug addict can never be set free until they look at themselves in the mirror and say, “I’ve got a problem.” An alcoholic can never be set free until they look at themselves and say, “I have a problem.”

So the pastor needs to look at himself in the mirror and say, “I’ve got a problem.” Admit to yourself you’ve got a problem and tell your church, “I need to have some time off. I need to regroup. I need to get back to God.” Then pray like David did in Psalm 51, “Have mercy upon me, O God.” Do whatever you need to do to get away with your wife and reconcile. She may not, but you’ve got to work at it.

“And that’s the problem with a lot of our brothers in the body of Christ. They don’t look at that Scripture. It says, ‘restore,’ it doesn’t say ‘kick them to the curb.’ I know you’ve heard the saying that the church are the only ones who shoot our own wounded. I know you’ve seen it personally and seen it other places. Where is the restoration? And it’s a problem.”

I’ve seen us as pastors go an awful long way to work with families and help their kids and others, but we don’t always do the same thing for our own families. And that’s because we assume that our families should understand.

I also recommend to the church to set up some accountability procedures when he comes back. When he goes out on a preaching engagement, assign one of the men of the church to go with him. Have someone go with him, whether it’s a deacon or a trustee, but someone he’s comfortable with. And have the church cover the expense. Because you know how temptation is always there. Even at the church, there should be some accountability there. You shouldn’t be with a female in the office by yourself. Have a window in your office if you’re behind closed doors. Just some things that will protect you.

Because the temptation will always be there. The enemy will always make sure. That’s an area where you will fall. The enemy says, “Oh, that’s what you like? Then I’m going to keep pressing that button.” Satan, he studies us. My weakness may not be yours and yours may not be mine, but we all have one. And the enemy will study it. “Oh, Krispy Kreme donuts is yours? Okay. Alright.

RC: Krispy Kreme is everyone’s weakness.

I get this question a lot and you’ve talked about it some in regards to different situations. I have my own feelings on the issue. If a pastor has krispycommitted adultery, he needs to tell his wife and he needs to tell the church leadership. Does he need to tell the congregation? They don’t need to know the details, but they need to know. I feel that he’s violated the trust of the church and at least for the time, he’s forfeit his right to be the shepherd.

FL: I totally agree. They don’t need to know the details. But call a special meeting, church members only, but that doesn’t always work because you’ll have all kinds of people showing up.

The church needs to know. And that will say to the people, “Wow, he’s human like us.” Because there are a lot of people in the audience who have messed up like him.

RC: I’ll tell you what. Since I’ve been preaching again and sharing my testimony with congregations, many times during the invitation, I will have people come up and confess their adultery to me. And a lot of them are church leaders, Sunday School teachers and deacons. They say to me, “I never thought a leader could mess up like I did.” And they needed to hear that God could forgive them.

FL: I think that needs to happen. And that could be the start of reconciliation. For not only him and his wife and between him and God, but for him and the church. But those wounds need to heal. It’s a wound. And if it’s not dealt with it will just spread.

RC: Anything else you want to add?

FL: As president of this convention, I see a lot of things, I get a lot of letters, and there is just a need for guys who have fallen to be ministered to. We are known for shooting our wounded. But Paul says, “Considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.”

____________________________

Pastor Fred Luter, Jr., is the Senior Pastor at Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans, Louisiana and the first African American to be elected as President of the Southern Baptist Convention. Read more about him here.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Special thanks to Dr. Randy Johnson for his help in making this interview a reality.

SBC President Fred Luter, Pt. 2: Help for Fallen Pastors

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in Fred Luter, interview, southern baptist, Uncategorized | Posted on 02-05-2014

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fluter6Here’s part two of my interview with Pastor Fred Luter, current president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Make sure you check out part one before you pick up here. We covered all kinds of topics.

In the second half, we talk about what should happen to pastors who commit adultery, whether churches are properly equipped to handle the fall of a pastor, how pastors can be restored, and part of Pastor Luter’s own personal journey.

Fallen Pastors, Restoration, and How the Church Can Manage It

Ray Carroll: I believe there’s a moment when a pastor has forfeit his right to be the shepherd of his congregation.

Fred Luter: I believe that too. I’m not saying he can’t do anything. But he’s not fit to shepherd the people.

RC: Whether it’s an African-American church, or a Caucasian church that kicks a guy to the curb or gets a guy six months of counseling, everyone seems to be handling it differently. Six months of counseling isn’t going to fix what’s wrong with your heart, you know?

FL: That’s right.

RC: I believe when a man falls, it’s because there’s something wrong with your relationship with God and there’s something wrong with your relationship with your wife. And it’s going to take a whole lot longer than six months to fix both of those things.

FL: I agree with that. I’m on the same page as you.

RC: Churches are ill-equipped, rather, they don’t even know where to go where to look when their pastor falls. Whether it’s a Caucasian church or an African-American church, they most often don’t know where to go for help.

FL: I like the statement you made that when a brother falls, he’s not ready to be a senior pastor. See, that’s the problem in many of our African-American churches. Many of our churches, we didn’t have staff members. The pastor was the head honcho. We had associate ministers who were volunteers or bi-vocational. An African-American church, if the pastor isn’t there, it’s going to crumble. It’s going to fall because we depend so much on that person.

I think if there were more opportunities in the African-American church for preachers who fall and they can still be used in other positions other than senior pastor, I don’t think the damage would be as bad.

RC: I agree. I’ve seen guys who say, “I shouldn’t be pastoring right now. I need to be restored.” And when I say restored, I don’t mean to ministry, I mean to Christ. They need to get their life right with Christ before they start thinking about a return to ministry. I think if they do that, there’s a chance for them for a return to some sort of ministry. And whatever form of ministry they return to, that’s not up to me, that’s up to God.

“I’ll never forget when I started running for the position of Southern Baptist president, I started getting calls from all over the country from white media asking, ‘Why in the world does a black man want to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention?‘”

I believe what you’re saying is absolutely right. Galatians 6:1 says to “restore such a one.”

FL: Exactly. And that’s the problem with a lot of our brothers in the body of Christ. They don’t look at that Scripture. It says, “restore,” it doesn’t say “kick them to the curb.” I know you’ve heard the saying that the church are the only ones who shoot our own wounded. I know you’ve seen it personally and seen it other places. Where is the restoration? And it’s a problem.

And your ministry and I appreciate what you’re doing and the ministry Johnny Hunt has for fallen ministers. Johnny has helped a lot of pastors. We can’t just kick these guys to the curb. What if Moses had been kicked to the curb? Or David?

So somewhere, somehow, we’ve got to look at how we deal with a fallen brother or a fallen sister and the ultimate goal is that there needs to be restoration.

RC: We have a battle of extremes in many of our churches when it comes to fallen pastors. We either let him stay where he is without seriously dealing with his sin or we kick him out, which is saying, “If you sin, we’re done with you.” Instead, we should be saying, “When you sin, there is grace and restoration back to Christ for the repentant sinner.” What a model of restoration that is for the body of Christ to witness.

High Expectations for Church Leaders

FL: I think the problem lies in that we tend to feel that because of a pastor’s position that they should know better. But we’re human just like fluter8anyone else. I tell that to people at my church all the time, “I have marital issues just like you do, we have financial issues just like you do, and many nights I’ve slept on the sofa.” I’m very transparent with my congregation.

Yes, I’m in a position of leadership, but I’m a human just like you are. I have the same struggles and issues that you do. That’s why you need to keep me in your prayers. But when I do mess up, don’t say, “Well you should know better, you’re the pastor.” That’s the problem we have in a lot of our churches. We’ve put this guy on some kind of pedestal. And when they do fall how we deal with them is very inappropriate.

RC: That’s one of the factors I found when I interviewed pastors for my book that can weaken men to a dangerous point was overly high expectations. I also found that pastors have more unrealistic expectations for themselves than anyone else places on them.  Many have become consumed with doing ministry and have forgotten about pursuing Christ and letting Him do His work.

FL: And in the beginning we spend so much time in the Word and in prayer because we need help. There’s really only depending on God. But now we’ve got a few sermons under our belt and we look back and do some good things here or there and we don’t depend on God as much.

Recommendations for Fallen African-American Pastors & Churches

RC: So what would you tell me when an African-American brother or sister contacts me and says, “I’ve fallen or my husband has fallen and the church leaders are telling me I’ve got to stay or my husband has to stay and to keep quiet about it.” Generally, what’s your advice?

FL: What I would say is in spite of what the leadership says, you request some time off. Call it a sabbatical, call it a vacation, and just say you need some time. You don’t have to make it a public announcement, but the key leaders will know why. Tell them you need to work on yourself and you need to work on your marriage.

Franklin Avenue is the only church I’ve ever pastored. We started with 50 members. I was a street preacher after I got saved. I was preaching at Greater Liberty Baptist Church and came to Franklin Avenue. Technically, that’s how I became a Southern Baptist. Franklin Avenue was at one time an all-white Baptist Church.

luter5I’ll never forget when I started running for the position of Southern Baptist president, I started getting calls from all over the country from white media asking, “Why in the world does a black man want to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention?” I told them when I became a pastor, this was an all-white church and that’s how I became part of the Southern Baptists.

I never will forget there were times I was burning the candle at both ends, I felt I was the poster child for the Southern Baptists and I was on every news program. And it just got to the point when I used to go continually and I would come home and my kids would say, “Hey Dad, it’s good to see you!” But it got to a point where they would just say, “Hey Dad.”

And I said to myself, “Wow, I’m losing my family.” I’m going all over the country, preaching at all these places to all these people who are having me sign their Bibles, but I’m losing my family. And one Sunday I got before my church and said to them, “Folks, I need to take some time off. I’m going so much that I’m losing my family. And shame on me if I’m going all across the country and trying to save the world and I lose my own family.” I told them it wasn’t scheduled but I need a week off.

And guess what? They stood up and applauded and were very supportive. I will never forget that day as long as I live. My wife and kids had no idea I was going to do that.

People need to be honest with themselves. Like I always say – a drug addict can never be set free until they look at themselves in the mirror and say, “I’ve got a problem.” An alcoholic can never be set free until they look at themselves and say, “I have a problem.”

So the pastor needs to look at himself in the mirror and say, “I’ve got a problem.” Admit to yourself you’ve got a problem and tell your church, “I need to have some time off. I need to regroup. I need to get back to God.” Then pray like David did in Psalm 51, “Have mercy upon me, O God.” Do whatever you need to do to get away with your wife and reconcile. She may not, but you’ve got to work at it.

“And that’s the problem with a lot of our brothers in the body of Christ. They don’t look at that Scripture. It says, ‘restore,’ it doesn’t say ‘kick them to the curb.’ I know you’ve heard the saying that the church are the only ones who shoot our own wounded. I know you’ve seen it personally and seen it other places. Where is the restoration? And it’s a problem.”

I’ve seen us as pastors go an awful long way to work with families and help their kids and others, but we don’t always do the same thing for our own families. And that’s because we assume that our families should understand.

I also recommend to the church to set up some accountability procedures when he comes back. When he goes out on a preaching engagement, assign one of the men of the church to go with him. Have someone go with him, whether it’s a deacon or a trustee, but someone he’s comfortable with. And have the church cover the expense. Because you know how temptation is always there. Even at the church, there should be some accountability there. You shouldn’t be with a female in the office by yourself. Have a window in your office if you’re behind closed doors. Just some things that will protect you.

Because the temptation will always be there. The enemy will always make sure. That’s an area where you will fall. The enemy says, “Oh, that’s what you like? Then I’m going to keep pressing that button.” Satan, he studies us. My weakness may not be yours and yours may not be mine, but we all have one. And the enemy will study it. “Oh, Krispy Kreme donuts is yours? Okay. Alright.

RC: Krispy Kreme is everyone’s weakness.

I get this question a lot and you’ve talked about it some in regards to different situations. I have my own feelings on the issue. If a pastor has krispycommitted adultery, he needs to tell his wife and he needs to tell the church leadership. Does he need to tell the congregation? They don’t need to know the details, but they need to know. I feel that he’s violated the trust of the church and at least for the time, he’s forfeit his right to be the shepherd.

FL: I totally agree. They don’t need to know the details. But call a special meeting, church members only, but that doesn’t always work because you’ll have all kinds of people showing up.

The church needs to know. And that will say to the people, “Wow, he’s human like us.” Because there are a lot of people in the audience who have messed up like him.

RC: I’ll tell you what. Since I’ve been preaching again and sharing my testimony with congregations, many times during the invitation, I will have people come up and confess their adultery to me. And a lot of them are church leaders, Sunday School teachers and deacons. They say to me, “I never thought a leader could mess up like I did.” And they needed to hear that God could forgive them.

FL: I think that needs to happen. And that could be the start of reconciliation. For not only him and his wife and between him and God, but for him and the church. But those wounds need to heal. It’s a wound. And if it’s not dealt with it will just spread.

RC: Anything else you want to add?

FL: As president of this convention, I see a lot of things, I get a lot of letters, and there is just a need for guys who have fallen to be ministered to. We are known for shooting our wounded. But Paul says, “Considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.”

____________________________

Pastor Fred Luter, Jr., is the Senior Pastor at Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans, Louisiana and the first African American to be elected as President of the Southern Baptist Convention. Read more about him here.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Special thanks to Dr. Randy Johnson for his help in making this interview a reality.

Interview With Pastor Fred Luter, pt. 1: Fallen Pastors in African-American Churches

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in Fred Luter, interview, pastors, southern baptist | Posted on 29-04-2014

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In the last few months, I’ve been contacted by African-American pastors, churches, and their wives. People in trouble. But here’s my problem. I’ve learned there is something different about African-American church polity. I needed help and I got help from one of the best.

I had the honor of sitting down with Pastor Fred Luter while he was in the Nashville area recently and discussing some issues. Fred Luter is fl1pastor of Franklin Avenue Baptist Church of New Orleans, and current president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was the first African-American president to be named in the convention’s 168 year history.

I got what I expected – an honest, caring person who loves the people of his own church and the churches that are part of the Southern Baptist Convention. What I did not expect was that the interview turned out to be more of a conversation. We both learned something from each other. There are parts that the written word can’t convey. We were very serious at times and there were moments we laughed together.

We talked about the differences between how Caucasian and African-American churches handle fallen pastor situations. We also learned from one another that they are a lot alike. We discussed the high expectations of the pastor, the realities most churches face, and how any church can help a fallen pastor. This interview/conversation will be divided up into several posts and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

I started by telling him that I had noticed there was a big difference in the way African-American churches handled their business and treated their pastors.

Fred Luter: Major difference. I think it’s how we were brought up. We were brought up to respect the position of pastor.

Ray Carroll: Let me stop you there. Let’s talk about the good part of that first. In Caucasian churches, there is less respect and there are more expectations.

FL: I agree.

“It becomes a pattern and in some cases it becomes a lifestyle. It’s unfortunate. And you have situations where you have a brother has several mistresses in the church. And people know. Guys who have kids in the church. And people know. And yet he’s preaching in the pulpit every Sunday. And almost to a point to where it’s accepted. And unfortunately, that’s been the problem for years.”

RC: And I think they expect him to be like the hired help sometimes. There’s respect for the office, but there’s not respect for the man. But what I see in the African-American church is that the pastor, they respect him and what he says goes.

FL: That’s right. The buck stops here. Not with the deacon board, not with a committee. And that’s with most African-American churches.

RC: So, is it cultural?

FL: Yes, it’s cultural. The pastor is someone who’s representing God to us. I can remember as a kid growing up and we’d have a church picnic and we’d be there and folks would be there with their liquor and their loud music and someone would say, “Oh Lord! There’s the reverend! There’s the pastor!” And you’d have people trying to hide their beer and turn down their music.

There was just a respect for his position. That’s just the way it’s always been.

RC: The problem I run into now is, I will get an email from a Caucasian church and they’re often quick to tell the fallen pastor, “Well, you’re done. You’re fired.” They kick him to the curb. And that’s not the way to lovingly handle a sinning brother. Alternatively, African-American church leadership will say, “Let’s not tell everybody, he needs to stay where he is, because if we lose him, the church is done.

FL: And that’s a fault for a lot of us. Because unfortunately, a lot of brothers do that. African-Americans in church are some of the most forgiving people in the world. Even when it comes to moral failures.

RC: Which is not bad, of course.

fl2FL: No. But the problem is – and this is happening all across America – we’re willing to forgive, but we don’t place any type of plan where there’s remorse or forgiveness or repentance and we just let a brother go on. And we say, “Let’s just keep it quiet, don’t let anybody know.” And what happens is that he says, “Man, I got away with that.”

And it becomes a pattern and in some cases it becomes a lifestyle. It’s unfortunate. And you have situations where you have a brother has several mistresses in the church. And people know. Guys who have kids in the church. And people know. And yet he’s preaching in the pulpit every Sunday. And almost to a point to where it’s accepted. And unfortunately, that’s been the problem for years.

I remember in one church there was a pastor’s wife caught him coming out of a hotel with another member of the church. She brought him before the deacons to do something because it was getting out of hand. Their response to her was, “Now, baby, you know your daddy was like this.” She was a pastor’s kid. And they said, “We don’t want to cause any problems. We’ll talk to him, but let’s just keep it quiet.”

She came to me and she was blown away. She said, “Pastor Luter, I don’t understand this.” And she eventually left the church. She wasn’t even asking them to fire him but to hold him accountable.

RC: I’ve already seen at least two cases like that where the wife has said, “I’ve gone to him and I’ve gone to church leadership and they’ve said if they do anything it will kill the church.” And she’ll say, “What do I do? I want to leave him. But is that right?” I don’t even know what to tell them when the church leadership or her husband won’t step up.

FL: In a situation like that, she’s got to pray about what God would have her to do. Because if she stays, unfortunately, it’s going to continue. Because it gives him a ‘green light.’ He thinks, “My wife is staying and she’s still putting up with me.” But sometimes you’ve got to do things that will get your spouse’s attention.

I’m not saying divorce, but just leave. Just get out of the house. Go stay with your parents, a sibling. Just to get his attention that, “This is unacceptable. We made a vow, we made a commitment, we made a covenant. We say we’re Christians.” And I think until a spouse has been offended really draws the line, the offender will continue.

RC: Would the typical African-American church fall apart if the pastor got caught and was dismissed?

FL: It depends on how strong of a leader he is. If he’s a popular guy, if he’s a strong leader, it would be really difficult. Some people would just leave. And what would happen – and this is another crazy scenario – let’s say the church does get the boldness to stand up to him and put him out. He’ll go down the street and open up another storefront. And guess what?

RC: They’ll all go with him.

“African-Americans in church are some of the most forgiving people in the world. Even when it comes to moral failures.”

FL: It’s amazing, brother. It’s amazing what people will do. Because we forgive to a fault.

RC: Okay, but after you’ve said all that, that at the heart of it, that problem isn’t any different than what’s going on in Caucasian churches.

FL: Really?

RC: No. At that level.

FL: Really?

fl3RC: I’ll put it this way. A Caucasian pastor, if he’s been there between one and ten years, they’ll kick him out the door, generally. But if he’s an older, respected pastor, who has built his ministry there and has built that church up to 500 or 1,000 followers, what I’ve witnessed in the churches I’ve counseled, they are much more willing to say, “Let’s keep this under wraps. Let’s give him a three-month sabbatical and get him and his wife some counseling.”

FL: That’s surprising to me. In white churches?

RC: I’ve seen a lot of it. And what they’ll say is, “We don’t want to lose the people we’ve got.” Because you know what they’re really saying? They’re afraid of losing a certain amount of the membership. They don’t want to lose that strong pastor.

On top of that, I’ve had two or three churches contact me in the past eight months and say, “The new leadership just found out that the old leadership knew the current pastor committed adultery.” In one case, the leadership found out he had children and they covered it up. When the old leadership found out, the pastor had been there 20 years. Now he’s been there 40 years. It’s happening in the African-American church and the Caucasian church. Just under different circumstances.

FL: I know it happens all the time. I know a pastor who was well-respected by many leaders across the convention. A very talented preacher. One of the most talented. He committed adultery and before he went to this large church, people warned them, “Don’t hire him, he has a problem.” They hired him anyway. It didn’t take long and he got involved with an underage girl. This time, the mother pressed charges. And now he’s a registered sex offender. And you now what? Someone hired him again. Because he’s a sexual offender on record, the kids cannot gather in the sanctuary. They have to be in another building. There’s something wrong with that.

He’s a dynamic preacher, he’s a phenomenal speaker, he has charisma, he’s a great communicator, but there are some people who are willing to allow that to overshadow what the right thing to do is.

In the next part of the interview, we discuss what happens to pastors when they fall and the response of the church.

____________________________

Pastor Fred Luter, Jr., is the Senior Pastor at Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans, Louisiana and the first African American to be elected as President of the Southern Baptist Convention. Read more about him here.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Special thanks to Dr. Randy Johnson for his help in making this interview a reality.

Hershael York Interview, Pt. 1: Check Out Pastorwell.com

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in Hershael York, interview | Posted on 10-02-2014

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I’m reposting this interview I did with my friend Dr. Hershael York because I want to draw your attention to his new webpage, Pastorwell.com. Take a moment to check it out and bookmark it. There is some great stuff there and more to come. And part 2 of this interview can be located by clicking here.

york2Dr. Hershael York is known by many as the preaching professor at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. By some, he’s known as an outspoken critic for moral and Christian issues. To a few hundred, he’s the pastor of Buck Run Baptist Church in Frankfort, Kentucky, in the midst of paying off their debt and moving to a new facility. By a privileged few, he’s a father, grandfather, husband.

I used to know him as that guy in seminary that “if you take his preaching class, be prepared to have your rear end handed to you.” So I never took his class and I regret it.

After I fell from the ministry, years after my seminary experience, I was encouraged by a friend to call him. I heard that Dr. York was someone who had experience reaching out to fallen pastors with love and compassion. Strangely, that did not mesh with the image I had in my head of him.

I was happy to be proven wrong. When I interviewed him, he was gracious, kind and his wisdom is pasted throughout my book, “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World.” Better yet, I see him as a spiritual father of sorts now.

“We’re totally comfortable when a dope smoking, meth lab owning guy gets saved and we rejoice in that; but what if a Christian falls into that and returns? Our discomfort sort of negates the book of Galatians. In Galatians, Paul says, ‘What don’t you understand? Now if you began in the Spirit you are not perfected by works!'”

In fact, when my wife and I traveled to Frankfort recently to see and interview him (partly for this blog but mostly because I missed seeing him), the first thing he told me was how proud he was of me. Something I had longed for my own father to say.

Enough of that. I’ve tried to break down the interview the best I can. If you go and talk to Dr. York about anything, you’ll end up with a repository of awesome material that’s hard to replicate on the page. So, I’ve tried to do my best.

Fallen Pastors and Repentance

One of the topics we discussed was fallen pastors and when they repent. A lot of times, the fallen pastor will repent immediately and be restored to Christ, but other times, as in my case, he won’t. Dr. York discussed the issues with a late repenting pastor:

Christians want things to end clean and neat. And they’re uncomfortable when they don’t. What people are uncomfortable with is what everyone wants; we want to see reconciliation with his wife which means they get back together and live happily ever after. But you know what? That’s not always how it works. At the point people wake up and become really broken over their sin – at whatever point that is, then they have to deal with whatever consequences have occurred up to that point.

 “There’s no going back, you can’t roll back time, and so what’s the godly way to deal with this? Have we read our Bible? What repentsabout Abraham and Hagar? There were consequences. We can lament what Abraham did all we want, but we have to deal with it. And I think a lot of Christians miss that at some point and we have to answer the question, ‘How do I honor God now?’”

 That turned him to the message of the Gospel:

“If we really believe the gospel – the gospel takes you where you are. We say we believe the gospel isn’t about ‘try harder and do better’ but it’s about resting in God’s grace. And then we act upset when someone actually does something that demands that.

 “We’re totally comfortable when a dope smoking, meth lab owning guy gets saved and we rejoice in that; but what if a Christian falls into that and returns? Our discomfort sort of negates the book of Galatians. In Galatians, Paul says, ‘What don’t you understand? Now if you began in the Spirit you are not perfected by works!’

 “If true holiness is realizing our complete dependence upon God, then sometimes the Lord has to allow the consequences of our own sin to get us to that level of dependence on Him. If anyone else is uncomfortable with it, then so be it, they’re just going to be uncomfortable with it.”

What is true repentance and brokenness? Dr. York shares a personal story:

On to another important topic and a sensitive one that is often challenged. How do we know if a fallen pastor (or for that matter – anyone) is really repentant or broken over their sin? I told Dr. York I had a church contact me once and tell me that they had a candidate apply for a job who had fallen 25 years prior. When asked about it, he became defensive. I said, “If he was truly repentant and broken over his sin, his response would have been, ‘I committed adultery 25 years ago, I was forgiven by God, but I am more than willing to discuss anything with you, even the consequences of my actions.’”

Dr. York:

“You couldn’t have said it better. Years ago, I counseled an associate minister who had an affair with someone else in the church. He and his wife decided to reconcile immediately and he agreed to undergo counseling and follow a path to repentance, but he was asked to leave. He and his wife came here to our church.  

 conseque“The first time I met with them, the man said to me, ‘I just want to get past this.’ And I thought, here comes the speech. You get the speech for that one. I told him, ‘You’re never going to get past this. There is no getting past this. This is going to be whispered about you wherever you go for the rest of your life. You better get used to that. When your children get older, someone is going to tell them and it’s going to crush them.

 “I laid it out clearly and said, ‘This is what your future looks like. Now listen, you’ve only got one hope here. And this is the only way for you to do this – and that is if when somebody does whisper what you’ve done, someone else says, ‘That is just so hard to believe. Because look how he just loves the Lord and follows Jesus in the genuine wholeness of his life.’ To get there requires brokenness and it is a long hard road.

“His wife had a family reunion once a year and when he went, no one would speak to him. The family even called Dr. York and was furious that he was counseling this man. And he said to them, ‘As long as he is acting like he wants restoration, and he definitely does, then it all remains to be seen and proved over the course of time. It’s judgment on my part whether he is or isn’t repentant.

“The man came back from the reunion and was angry. He said, ‘They treated me horribly.’ I said, ‘Why did they have the opportunity to treat you like this? Who put them in this position? You have to own the fact that you got the choice and they didn’t, so you can’t judge them for the way they react to your sin’ He said, ‘What do I do?’ I said, ‘Sit there quietly and kindly, don’t force anybody to speak and when it comes time to pick up after a meal, do it and help out. Be a willing servant. Just have the attitude of the prodigal son after he came home and say, ‘Just let me be like one of your hired servants and that will be enough for me.

“And if you have that attitude, eventually, you’re going to win. How long? How many years? I don’t know. But eventually, they’re going to say, ‘His repentance is real, this is for real.’ For now, they might say, ‘This is an act.’ Four or five years down the road, they might not say that anymore. The question is, are you willing to do that? And if you’re genuinely broken over that, you will.’

 “It’s been almost ten years for them now and he called him because a church asked him to take on a leadership role. The man turned that down. He told Dr. York, ‘I knew it had the potential to appeal to my superficial nature which got me in trouble in the first place.’ Dr. York said, “He gets it now.”

Dr. York reflected on the reality that the situation could have ended very differently:

“There were moments where it was touch and go. The wife would call and say, ‘I don’t think this is going to work.’ But now, he’s reconwalked in repentance and the Lord has been good. In their case, their marriage was saved and people look at it differently. But let’s say it had ended. 

“Frankly, his walk of repentance would not be significantly different. His life circumstances would be different, but the repentance would still have to be there. He would have to humble himself in front of his family, his children, and her. Repentance is repentance. The consequences you’ve inherited might be different based on what point it hit you. It’s not the consequences you’re answering for when you stand before the Lord. It’s the sin. And I think Christians misunderstand that.”

Stay tuned for part two of this interview. In it we discuss the true cause of ministry failure, pornography, and preventing a fall.

___________________________

Dr. Hershael York is the Victor and Louise Professor of Christian Preaching and Associate Dean of Ministry and Proclamation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Senior Pastor of Buck Run Baptist Church in Frankfort, Kentucky. You can find out more about his ministries and love for pastors at pastorwell.com. Tanya, his wife of twenty-seven years, is a popular speaker at women’s conferences, and they have two married sons, Michael, 25, and Seth, 23. For a full biography, please click here.

____________________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Recent Interview With Tribulation News Radio

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in book, interview | Posted on 11-06-2013

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I had a very pleasant interview recently with Dr. Elizabeth Mattke, host of Tribulation News Radio. We talked about my book, ministry, and the state of the church.

Here’s the link to it. Hope you enjoy it.

I’m available for just about any kind of interview. If you have any interest in the epidemic of pastors falling in our world, please check out my interview page and contact me. I have several of my interviews listed there.

 

 

Fallen Pastor Radio Interview With Hagmann & Hagmann

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in book, gospel, interview | Posted on 09-05-2013

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I had a teriffic interview with the Hagmann &  Hagmann Report. We spoke about my book and about the gospel.

The link is here for the full program, but I’m in the second hour, starting around the 65 minute mark. Hope you’ll check it out. You can click the link to listen online or go to iTunes and download the May 7th version of the show.

They were amazing in their allowing me to share my story, the hope of the gospel, and the future of the church.

__________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

Fallen Pastor YouTube Interview With George Hemminger

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in adultery, interview, ministry, youtube | Posted on 08-05-2013

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I was happy to do a quick interview with George Hemminger on YouTube about the alarming rate of ministry failure among pastors. I appreciate him taking the time to talk to me.

I do look a little discolored in the interview. But it’s all good.

__________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.

 

Cassandra Parkin,”Lighter Shades of Grey,” Part One

Posted by Ray Carroll | Posted in authors, interview, Provoketive Magazine | Posted on 10-04-2013

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I did an interview with Cassandra Parkin, author of “Lighter Shades of Grey: A (very) Critical Reader’s Guide to ‘Fifty Shades of Grey.” The interview is up over at Provoketive Magazine. Whether you read Fifty Shades of Grey or not, this interview is interesting, fun and will give you some insight.

Part two should be up very soon.

Parkin is also an award winning writer and her ebooks on the “Grey” trilogy are very affordable over at Amazon.

Thanks for reading!

__________________

Ray Carroll is the author of “Fallen Pastor: Finding Restoration in a Broken World,” which answers many of the questions I get asked on a weekly basis.

If you are a fallen pastor who needs to talk or you are someone who has been affected by a fallen pastor and would like to contact me privately, please click here. You are the main reason this ministry exists. I’m here to help you.

If you are a church, men’s group, association, conference, or news outlet and would like more information about this ministry, please click here.